How to turn a grudge purchase in to a purchase women love to make with Moxie’s Mia Klitsas | #413

 

Tim

What was a running joke?

 

Mia

Putting tampons in tins so they would stop rolling around in my handbag.

 

Tim

That it? Love it.

 

Mia

Yeah it was a personal pain point of mine and it’s something that I had kind of struggled with as a young woman and something that I know my friends had struggled with. And the more that we talked about it the more we realized gee, this is potentially some opportunity here. There’s no one’s really doing anything in this space.

 

Tim

They’re mostly boxed. So, fall out of box?

 

Mia

Yeah, so traditionally they come in flip top boxes basically. Cover boxes,

 

Tim

Cigarette packs.

 

Mia

Well, pretty much. Like many cigarette packs and they always break open in your bag, the tampons fall out, they get damaged or they get grubby and you don’t use them after that. So I just really thought that- it was the most feminine product. It’s the ultimate feminine product. It’s something that women have to carry all the time. Yet I felt that the offerings on the market were kind of anything but feminine.  Not functional, not particularly pretty

 

Tim

Were you looking for a business idea?

 

Mia

No, not at all. No. I was a marketing student. I was about to graduate. I was doing an internship at a multinational in product development. I actually didn’t really know where I wanted to go. I didn’t quite know- I think I always had a sense that I would do my own thing. I’d come from a background of family business.  My father had his own business, my partner at the time who’s now my husband was in family business. So, I think I kind of always had a bit of a spark to do something but I certainly was not looking on the hunt so to speak.

 

Tim

So what did you- because I hear this a lot. You know, someone has an idea. They’ve experience a problem and they gone “Gee I wish someone to do something about that” and no one does anything about it and things remain the same. What did you do in order to start the Moxie business?

 

Mia

I think just on that point, I think it was good that I was young and quite naive. I was 22 and had very little responsibility and so there wasn’t a lot holding me back from that perspective. I think perhaps had I known now what I- sorry- had I known then what I know now and what I’ve learned, perhaps I would have done it. It might have scared me off. So, I think you know bit of guts, some determination, some bit of stubbornness, naivety all rolled into one. And in hindsight I think that’s actually what made it work.

 

Tim

Have you managed to hold a bit of that? Now, what are we talking, 10 years on-ish? 13 years on. Did you feel like you’ve been corporatized or have you managed to maintain that entrepreneurial small business kind of gut instinct?

 

Mia

Yeah, I think I have. It would be interesting to ask my colleagues what they think about that .

 

Tim

What does it feel like? Can you describe that feeling?

 

Mia

It’s so interesting. It’s really- it’s quite empowering, to be able to develop your own ideas and then see them come to fruition which unfortunately in marketing I mean I have a marketing background. Sometimes in marketing roles you may not necessarily get to experience that you might just be one small silo in a much bigger business and you don’t necessarily get to see those. Those ideas come to fruition. So, for me to be able to take something from concept to- you know conceptualisation to commercialization is pretty awesome.

 

Tim

Someone might say it’s an overused word but I completely get what you mean when that feeling of being a small business owner vs. cog in the wheel. I talk a lot about the cubicle escapees on the show. You know all got an idea just desperately trying to- Yes. So okay, so you have this idea tampons in a tin. You take it to market?

 

Mia

Yes. So, we pretty much developed it within six months which in hindsight is mad. I’m not sure I’d recommend. Well I think now knowing what I know about launching products and even having launched some more of my own over the years, line extensions and whatever, six months is really quick to get a completely new brand off the ground particularly in a mature category. Feminine hygiene is dominated by massive multinationals and very few players in the market I would say as opposed to a lot of other FMCG categories. So, in hindsight I think it’s good that I was gutsy because I a bit off a lot.

 

Tim

Because it’ll be very easy I mean you’re right. I mean that is a category dominated by the big brands. Big budgets. You could so easily have gone “no way” but naivete made you go “absolute way”.

 

Mia

Yeah absolute way all the way. And yeah, I think I really believed in it. You know I really backed it and I really believed in it and I honestly don’t think for one second I had that thought process of “oh my gosh what am I doing? This isn’t going to work.” I was just so hell bent on delivering. And more from a personal perspective just you know really wanting to see it come to life and knowing that it was something truly unique that no one had done. I just wanted to make it happen.

 

Tim

Did you have to borrow money? What do you do?

 

Mia

Yeah those are the days. Those are the days where you could

 

Tim

Daddy?

 

Mia

No, no, none of that. Those are the days where you could go to the bank basically with an order from Woolworths and get a loan. So, I think times have changed quite significantly. Our first retailer was Woolworths we got ranged nationally in all stores. It’s actually crazy to think about it now. I just marched into Woolworths as a 22-year-old and thought “Oh this is a great idea”

 

Tim

Well you didn’t just march in because getting a meeting with a buyer at Woolworth’s would not be easy so how did that happened?

 

Mia

Well actually from memory we’d actually contacted Kohl’s first because their Melbourne based. And we were an unknown business and unknown brand they didn’t want to know us. So, I hung up the phone pretty promptly and so we thought “okay well, let’s try Woolley’s then” and I think we had just sort of happened to call coincidentally around the time of their review period.

 

Tim

Time is everything.

 

Mia

Yeah. Which great timing. So, they said “OK fantastic you can make a meeting and come up and see us.” And so, it wasn’t too difficult but again I think it was because we called at the right time. And we just we went prepped. We made sure that we had all of our ducks in a row. I’d actually ordered a container worth of stock in preparation. So, talk about being confident.

 

Tim

How many tampons is in the container?

 

Mia

That’s a hell of a lot. It’s a lot. It was a 20-foot container. I would have had probably a lifetime supply of tampons.

 

Tim

Hang on, I need to understand that. So, you have gone tampons in a tin. “No brainer, I’m going to do that. It’d be great if we get a big distributor like woollies, tick.” But before Woolies come on board, you’ve actually got an order. So that means you have designed the tin, you sourced the tin, you’re not manufacturing tampons. I’m assuming you’re buying them at this point from elsewhere.

 

Mia

Yeah, huge gamble, huge.

 

Tim

Well great in retrospect.

 

Mia

Yes, but could have gone south. Could ‘ve gone the other way. So very dangerous, incredibly risky.

 

Tim

But it’s still Woolworths you’ve got.

 

Mia

Yeah. And I wonder if that’s what got us ranged. You know in all honesty I think being that prepared and being that confident in the product, I wonder if you know often people go to Byers or go to big retailers and say “I’ve got this seed of an idea and I’m thinking it’s this and that” and I appreciate that sometimes. Collaboration is important between the two but you know they’re incredibly busy. They’ve got so many products to look after and new products to look at that I imagine someone that goes there quite well prepped would have-

 

Tim

Yeah, it shows. You’ve got –  you’re committed, you’ve got skin in the game, you’re not mocking around, you’re not testing the market, you are there, you are part of the market.

 

Mia

And I think also you know we did have something truly unique. There was nothing else in the world like Moxie. There was no tampon brand or feminine hygiene brand at the time that kind of took a different approach, took a bit more of a beauty slash fashion approach to feminine hygiene rather than something that was kind of clinical. I wanted to make it something that women purchased because they wanted to and not just because they had to. Yeah it was very much this kind of grudge purchase.

 

Tim

I want to talk about brand you’re big on brand and looking at your visual brand, looking at your packaging, you brought in some product, it looks at it looks amazing. I want to talk about your marketing later on but in terms of brand two questions. First of all, where did Moxie come from?

 

Mia

So Moxie is actually a retro word. It’s an American word from the 30s and 40s and it actually means to have guts, determination and courage. In the face of adversity and it was often a word that was used to describe women. You’d hear it in a lot of old movies.

 

Tim

She’s got a bit of Moxie’s better.

 

Mia

So it’d be Humphrey Bogart saying “she had big brown eyes with a lot of moxie” or “you got a lot of moxie kid” and it means you have a lot of guts. And having designed the tin, the tin itself is quite retro. It is a packaging material that was quite commonly used for all kinds of things back in the 30s and 40s. And I thought it’s starting to look quite retro perhaps it needs a bit of a retro nod and it’s a retro name and after bit of research, found moxie and rolled off the tongue and it was available. And it told a story and it was actually very much how I felt as a young woman at the time. I very much felt like it was going to take a lot of moxie.

 

Tim

And part of branding and marketing is being able to tell stories around things so Moxie obviously plays into that. You have a wonderful quote around branding. We’ve learned how to compete on brand is the one thing if done right can’t easily be replicated or taken away from you. And you know in a world of sameness, there’s no shortage of tampon brands, there’s no shortage of vets, of plumbers, everything. So, brand is one of those things that can set us apart. Can you define brand in your terms and tell us about how important, how you’ve gone about branding Moxie?

 

Mia

I think as I said, brand is really your true USP. I think is your truly unique thing that you can hang your hat on beyond a product innovation which I think unfortunately, these days even product innovations can be copied. So, to me brand is really your identity and much like people, personalities can’t be replicated. I really feel the same about brands. I think a brand is a personality, it’s truly unique and it’s not something that can be easily replicated. And I think if you’re true to your brand, over the course of its lifetime I think that is something that you can really hang your hat on. So, for us entering such a mature category dominated by such big players, we were never going to be able to compete on ads spent for example. We could never. I wish I had those budgets but

 

Tim

About 10 percent to those budgets.

 

Mia

It’s even five, let’s be honest. I wish I had those kinds of budgets but we didn’t and we knew that. So, we thought how we have to compete on brand. First and foremost, the brand has to stand for itself. So initially we didn’t even heavily promote the tins. We promoted the brand and it was more about what it meant to have Moxie.

 

Tim

You weren’t running TV ads. How do you promote?

 

Mia

No, we weren’t running TV ads.  We actually did some sponsorship. So, we did a lot of more kind of brand experience stuff. So, we went to like cinema and we did some sampling and we had Moxie girls and we actually got the three-minute Angels who were a little massage crew going around to all the women in the audience giving them three-minute massages and telling them about the brand do things like that. Other brand collabs alignments, so aligning ourselves with other brands or other initiatives that really displayed that meaning of Moxie. And really just educating. So, I do a lot of talks in schools, speaking to young girls about the importance of Moxie. You know women’s rights, making good consumer choices and all kinds of things.

 

Tim

How did you get those schools? Schools are great, they’re not easy to get into. What’s your little secret sauce?

 

Mia

Look I’m really fortunate. I actually kind of remember really how it started. But it’s something I’ve been doing over quite a few years now and bless them they call me back every year which is fantastic. So, I’ve kind of got my little set of schools that I go back and visit.

 

Tim

Great marketing.

 

Mia

Yeah, I see the uniters and your tens and talk to them a lot about obviously about starting a business as young woman and what that meant and what my journey was like and how I sort of you know got to this point. But also talked to them a lot about social responsibility and things like that. We started an initiative a few years back. So, I talk to them about the power of their choices and how you can use your business as a platform to basically drive awareness of the things you believe in.

 

Tim

So, Moxie is going along, Tampon in a tin, tick. We all wanted that. Well I didn’t but 50 percent of the population did and that’s going swimmingly. At what point did you then make it a subscription service?

 

Mia

So, we still sell in major retail. So, throughout Australia we export quite a bit too. Probably in the last year or so we’ve gone online with a subscription model. This is the one product like personal care products, feminine hygiene is the one product that women unfortunately have to buy monthly. So, it is something we need constantly and it’s also the one thing we often forget to buy because it is that grudge purchase. It’s not like oh it’s a Lippie or it’s Chocolate, or it’s bread or milk. Even though it is a necessity because it really only is needed or used one week of the month, we often forget. We often caught out. We run out in the most awkward of situations. And so, I thought- Moxie really- again it was all about solving pain points for women. This was another one. Stop that fear of running out and have it at the ready and available for when you need it.

 

Tim

There’s no one else offering a monthly subscription.

 

Mia

No, there’s a couple of smaller players around so

 

Tim

My blades are on a monthly subscription.

 

Mia

Yeah, brilliant. Like it makes so much sense and I think now you know where I was so time poor, were buying so much online we’re on our phones all the time. It just makes sense to you know at the press of a button be able to have that convenience. And I thought it was just it was a perfect fit for Moxie, perfect for our customer something that they were asking for.

 

Tim

Have you been overwhelmed or underwhelmed by the takeoff, take up of the subscription service? And while you thinking about that, I’ll give you some thinking time because part of that is- you continue to compete in a very busy category. I worked at an advertising agency when I first came out of uni who had the stay free Libra account and I saw the budgets I saw that were going into it. So, you were competing very –  and yet Moxie for me and I’m not party your target audience, I hadn’t heard of Moxie until I came into contact with you. So, the underwhelm question is both about the subscription service take up and the brand take up.

 

Mia

Yeah, it’s quite interesting. I feel like people will definitely resonate with the tin’s so as soon as I say, often I find myself saying Oh you know Moxie… And they look like they’re ticking in their minds and then I say, oh you know the tampons in the little tins and they say oh yes. So, we’ve kind of been careful not to just be known about the tampon, not to be known, defined by the Tampon in the tins but it is such a core unique offer. So, it’s a bit difficult not to be so I think we’ve definitely got some work to do still in terms of awareness. I think even 13 years later we’re still definitely have work to do. The subscription has really kind of floored me particularly in the last couple of weeks.

 

Tim

Last couple of weeks? How long it’s been since your subscription been offered?

 

Mia

Box club is you see it now. Moxie Box Club is in its third iteration. Few web sites later

 

Tim

Can I just say, you’re use of the word box and we’re going to talk later? I’m glad you raised it because I can now raise it.

 

Mia

Yeah, I’m glad you picked it up. Fantastic. Some little subtle cheekiness which is very Moxie.

 

Tim

What’s happening in the last- Yes, it is. Well-being clear on your brand and part of your personal

 

Mia

And being true to that. It is, it’s being a little cheeky, it’s pushing the envelope just a little bit it’s not being crass but it is what makes us unique.

 

Tim

Walked the light of crasses but I think it’s hilarious.

 

Mia

I think polarizing is good. I think that’s worked for us in the past. I’m digressing.

 

Tim

Well I think we’re going there. So, I will read that line which was at the end of your video. Your box may be unpredictable but ours isn’t. I mean I think that’s genius. You know it’s a bit naughty and a bit cheeky but it is. It’s about owning that and if it polarizes then you can’t be everything to everyone.  Be the black and gold tampon if you want to be everything to everyone.

 

Mia

Took the words out of my mouth and I knew that from very early on and I don’t think we’ve ever tried to be everything to anyone as long as we’re something to a decent number of women then that’s good for me. It’s not going to be for everyone. I think if it were then it would be quite generic as you said it would be you know a private label or a black and gold or something and it’s not.  I want the Moxie users to

 

Tim

There are black and gold tampon?

 

Mia

Yeah, they are certainly our home brands.

 

Tim

Hello to the black and gold people listening to the… So, going back, you said the last two weeks you’ve been caught by the subscription.

 

Mia

Yeah, the last two weeks it’s just really kind of taken off and I wonder if it’s just you know being online kind of has this there’s this you know viral nature to it.

 

Tim

What have you done? Can you can you trace it back to

 

Mia

Well we’re looking at it at the moment. That’s I think just any marketing or any advertising, 50 percent of it works. You just don’t know which 50 percent. Beauty about online is that it’s more. It is traceable. It is trackable, it’s a lot more measurable. And so, we’re really sort of trying to get our ducks in a row trying to figure out exactly what it was. But I think again it’s this shareability. It’s girls telling their friends. I mean I’m noticing it on our Facebook page which gets a heap of interaction like the engagement’s kind of crazy you know women tagging friends or taking their daughters. So, I think it really is about word of mouth. But online is just so rapid and it’s so quick whereas I remember back in the day, we’d put an ad in Cosmo or Dolly or something and it could take months to see any kind of result if at all. Because again we may see a spike in retail sales but could we attribute that to the ad you know in Cosmo. Who knows really whereas there’s a direct correlation between what you do for example on Facebook and the results through your sales funnel which is really exciting to me. It really, really excites me.

 

Tim

Well it’s trackable and its proof that you’re either doing something right or you’re doing something wrong. Slight digression to the tin’s ad, much to the price.

 

Mia

Oh yeah. It’s not a cheap product to make. I wouldn’t recommend it. Yeah, it’s not. But again, it sets us apart and it’s something that we’re prepared to take a hit on because it is part of what makes our brand unique. So along with the personality, there’s –  I think with any brand you can have a great brand but the product has to deliver as well. It still has to be functional and has to be at least as good as the competition.  I think for it to be successful. So yeah, we take a hit but it’s important.

 

Tim

We are having a chat to Mia Kitsas who is the founder of Moxie, well it is a tampon subscription service but it’s also available through chemists, in supermarkets and just having to get the Woolworths account since we started this as I love that. But I want to talk marketing but before we get into that, on talk politics which I never do on the show. It bores the pants off me and I’m not very good at it right. However, do you lobby government because of this- our government in Australia applies GST, 10 percent tax to tampons which is a necessity. So, does that get you back up. Do you lobby government or do you just leave it alone?

 

Mia

It does get my back up and I think about this a lot and I feel like my view has changed slightly on it.

 

Tim

Your facial expressions also just change.

 

Mia

Yeah. It’s a really interesting question and there is no doubt in my mind that feminine hygiene is a necessity. I think being in a developed country we are very fortunate that we have access to these products. But they are a necessity unless rest of the population would be happy for us to just, dare I say bleed freely which is not really good for anybody. I mean each to their own. But really, it’s not ideal. It’s not ideal. They’re a necessity we really can’t do without them. So, well we have lobbied at times we certainly have and we certainly have that jumped on existing campaigns or started our own campaigns to try and encourage the government but particularly when Julia Gillard was prime minister. But unfortunately, I feel like that fell on deaf ears. I think my experience in Uganda, so I’m in Uganda in 2013 and long story short, we started an initiative called pads for pads whereby we use the profits we make from Moxie in Australia to fund the production of reusable sanitary items for girls in developing countries. So, we started in Uganda. And when I went to Uganda, I kind of changed my tune a little bit. I thought I still do believe that- well I feel like if tampons or feminine hygiene is going to be taxed, I feel like we should use that money for good. So, we should use that either for something like you know supporting at risk women or women in need who don’t have access to products or providing products for free for young schoolgirls or something. So, I’m sure the government would love that but I feel like that money could be redistributed. I feel like you know as I said we’re very fortunate that we can afford them.

 

Tim

You’re okay with the tax, you’d like to see it distributed the way it’s going to

 

Mia

If it is something that is going to be taxed then I would love to see that money actually go to good use and be put towards something that would actually benefit women, Australian women.

 

Tim

If GST was removed feminine hygiene products how would it impact your business?

 

Mia

I think it would, to be honest.

 

Tim

I don’t think it would either. It’s more kind of thing that is commercial.

 

Mia

Not at all.  Absolutely. As I said I’m sort of in two minds about it. It should either be not taxed. Don’t tax it or let us do something cool with it.

 

Tim

We’re not doing opinions around here, we’re in marketing. Let’s talk about growth because you’ve had some fantastic growth. Can you wrap some numbers around like to scope Moxie give us a sense where Moxie’s at now? You know everything please Mia, I want a complete balance sheets, split data. Whatever you really do. But just give us a sense of where you’re at.

 

Mia

So, at the moment we’re selling a pack of Moxie somewhere in the world about every 30 seconds. So, a lot of tampons.

 

Tim

How do you feel?

 

Mia

It’s strange. It’s a really odd feeling. I think it doesn’t become reality unless when I see it on the shelf at a retailer. I’m like “oh gosh, Oh that’s mine”. It becomes quite real. But I think rolling numbers like that off the tongue is- I think 13 years ago I never would have thought that we’d-

 

Tim

Every 30 seconds a pack if Moxie is sold. Number of staff?

 

Mia

We’re a tight team. There’s about eight of us at the moment.

 

Tim

I love that.

 

Mia

Yeah, a really nice tight team. It’s fantastic.

 

Tim

All locally based? Tampons are made where?

 

Mia

Yeah. Tampons are made in Europe.

 

Tim

In Europe? Okay, I wouldn’t pick that. Can you talk turnover?

 

Mia

Can’t really. I can’t give away my trade secrets. No, I can’t talk turnover. But look it’s certainly not sending me on yachts. Yet, but it does okay. The motivation for me was never for it to be an enormous money spinner. For me it was about doing something I love.

 

Tim

Have you had anyone knock on the door saying I’d like to buy Moxie.

 

Mia

No not yet.

 

Tim

Not yet? They will.

 

Mia

Do you think?

 

Tim

Yes, no doubt. Everything’s for sale-

 

Mia

You know what I think I’m at the point now where I’m a lot less emotional about the business as I was perhaps five years ago.

 

Tim

What happen?

 

Mia

I don’t know. I still certainly feel challenged by it and I still love it but I’m just a bit less precious about it. Yeah and there’s a lot more ideas up here that want to come to fruition.

 

Tim

Is it a good thing do you think to lose the emotion around something that you have given birth to?

 

Mia

I certainly don’t think it’s a bad thing. I think

 

Tim

Probably think clearer.

 

Mia

I do, I do. I certainly think I’m still a risk taker. I’m still as much of a risk taker as I was then. I’m a bit older now which arguably perhaps it’s just more stupid to be that riskier when you’re older but yeah, I don’t think it’s bad to lose a bit of that emotion. I think it just I find I have more clarity in my business decisions. It’s funny I’m the person that struggles to order off a menu. Like I can’t decide between the parmigiana and the lasagna. But asked me something about you know it could be the most critical decision in business and I will have a black or white opinion on it and I wonder if-

 

Tim

It is a hard decision between parma and a lasagna.

 

Mia

You feel me right. It’s a very difficult. First world problems. But yeah, I find that not being as emotionally attached.  It’s just changed my perception of my way of thinking.

 

Tim

Let’s talk growth now. I want to find out what’s been the biggest win you’ve had. I would probably argue that getting the Woolworths account prior to having any product. Actually, having product floating on a contained somewhere.  That’s a big win. Another big win that kind of really created momentum for you winners. It doesn’t have to be like massive it could just be someone said something or you made a decision and it was whatever but is there anything that comes to mind?

 

Mia

Yeah. You know years ago, probably about 11 years ago now, we sponsored Melbourne Fashion Week. I can’t recall exactly which iteration or who the sponsor was but it was the fashion week in Melbourne and we sponsored a couple of designers who actually designed a pattern for a Moxie team that we had produced in a very limited quantity and we gave those out for FREE to all the VIP’ s in the room and that designer actually had clothes printed with that same print and put that down the runway. And we made it into Vogue which I never and apparently was the first time that Vogue had ever featured a tampon brand. And you know I think for us to have made it into such a prominent fashion publication as a fashion Must-Have, it was pretty amazing.

 

Tim

Did you see any results from that in terms of increased brand awareness, sales?

 

Mia

Definitely. We definitely got more brand awareness from it. Sales I’m not so sure. It is hard to track and I really do believe in the whole touchpoint theory that it takes multiple touch points to make a sale and it’s absolutely the case in this category.

 

Tim

Just before you came in I responded to an e-mail from a potential sponsor who said I would like to sponsor your show I said great and here’s my sponsorship proposal. They’ve come back and they said can we just do because I sell it in packs of 12 episodes because you know you’ve got to build up some frequency right and they said could we just do one. And I’m like no, no because I’m happy to take- Well I’m not happy to take your money. I could take your money, I could take it right now. One ad in the show ain’t going to work. One ad on any show ain’t going to work. So, you’ve kind of got to commit.

 

Mia

Definitely. It’s about repetition.

 

Tim

Now Mia, their wins. I think you would be a woman who has had a few failures and probably is quite proud of.

 

Mia

How much time have you got, Tim?

 

Tim

What’s the worst thing that happened in your Moxie journey?

 

Mia

Oh, the worst. It’s funny because I think every time something bad happens I’m like this is the worst thing that’s happened catastrophizing much.  I’m a big believer in failure. I think if you don’t fail and fail often I just think fail fast, fail fast and recover quickly if you can. Failure is really important I think it’s what’s helped us grow and it’s what helped us learn quickly. I’d say one of the things that, I don’t know if I call it a fail because we would have done it anyway. I’m am not a what if person. I’m the person that will jump off the bridge just to see what’s underneath it. You know I always hate to wonder what if. So, we had an opportunity to export Moxie in 2009 to the UK so we got interest from a very, very big retailer over there and they wanted to ranges again in quite a significant number of stores and we thought oh this is fabulous but perhaps a little too premature. We actually didn’t even have a full suite of products so we only had tampons in our range. We hadn’t yet extended into pads or liners or anything else.

 

Tim

Just on that. Worth noting for the listeners. You have extended as you pad, you’ve got hot water bottles, you’ve got chocolate, you’re even selling Nutella on your website. Fantastic idea.

 

Mia

We do. Anything that a girl needs for that time of the month. Sometimes it’s just a little jar of Nutella to take the edge of. Whatever’s going to work.

 

Tim

Great. All that little cheekiness of the brand. Back to this UK retailer.

 

Mia

Yeah so as I said we were you know, I don’t think we were really prepared. And we kind of got a few threats they sort of said to us, we’ll look if you guys don’t do it, if you don’t deliver this product, we’re going to rip it off and we’ll do it ourselves. And we thought oh no we can’t let that happen and so off we went. So, we actually then developed a full suite of products. We developed pads and liners, enormous investment, found a warehouse in the UK, fell into a quite a bad deal we just

 

Tim

Sounds like you panicked. No? Or is it something that you needed to do at some point anyway?

 

Mia

It was going to happen either way. That’s what I mean. I think it was bound to happen. We certainly learnt a lot from it. It was a bad deal. It was really erroneous and in hindsight it wasn’t great. But it taught us a lot about export. Export’s really tough. It sounds easy and it sounds really exciting but I think maintaining that kind of business on that sort of scale at a distance is really, really challenging and it’s also it’s even difficult to find the right agents or the right distributors. I think finding the right partners is critical. If it is something you want to explore as a local brand, finding the right team and the right people around you is

 

Tim

Would it be fair to say that at that point in time in 2009 when you had an offer from a UK retailer that you probably hadn’t even bedded down Moxie in Australia. Or New Zealand, new region and going to the other side of the world.

 

Mia

Yeah absolutely. It was just too premature. But it forced you to extend the product range and you’re totally grateful.  I mean I’m looking at the box here so to speak. Gags can be so good as a fun idea laugh. But it’s beautiful. So, you’d better down now. Tell me you also got involved with the wrong partner and did you lose five hundred grands. Yes, that was that was another UK story so yeah it was a warehouse. Oh gosh what we’re doing what were we thinking. So yeah, we found a warehouse basically we needed an onsite warehouse to dispatch to the retailer and we found this guy and you talk the talk and went to work. We actually flew over there and went to the warehouse and spent significant amount of time with him and everything was fantastic. Long story short within about six months he went in to immigration and I forget exactly what they’re called but there’s a set of legal terms in the UK that all warehouses are bound by. And basically, it’s in their favour and basically says if they lose your stock you can’t do anything about it. Yeah. So, he went into liquidation. God knows what happened to our stock but he had about half a million dollars’ worth of it and off it went.

 

Tim

When was this?

 

Mia

Yeah 2010ish. It took us a long time to recover.

 

Tim

Tell me about the mindset then. You’re a young in business.

 

Mia

Yeah.

 

Tim

Sounds like you just made a wrong decision or taken for you know someone’s taken advantage whatever. How did you. Strong of mind enough to go. Well is that okay? Or did you go falling in to heap.

 

Mia

No. I think we went, it’s okay. It’s going to be okay. It’s funny my business partner like yeah, we always look at each other when things really go down like that. We look at each other and we say or if we need it or if we’re making a very risky decision we often look at each other and say Right what’s the worst that can happen. And I think at that point we got to we might lose our houses. Is it okay? But we’re still around. Okay. We could start again. Maybe. Okay cool, let’s do it. You know so

 

Tim

Really

 

Mia

Yeah, I think that was the of the discussion and we still have it. We still have discussion, what is the worst that can happen and we kind of feel like we’ve got our health. We’ve got our families.

 

Tim

Wow

 

Mia

You know the rest is just bonus. The rest is a bonus. If everything else in life comes off without a hitch then fantastic. Doesn’t always work that way. So, we have that conversation and I think it’s a good reset. And so yeah, I think with that it just it made us more driven by it. We learnt a lot. We certainly don’t enter into export agreements lightly. We had an incredible deal from the US a few years ago. One of the major pharmacy retailers over there wanted to put us in 8000 stores.

 

Tim

LA.

 

Mia

Yeah. So. Oh yeah, I was already buying what’s in my head and I’d already spent the money. I’m thinking about what we could do. Yeah, the more we the further we got into that deal. Again, it was incredibly onerous. They basically wanted pay on scan. They wanted to pay us on scans so far which I owe is not sustainable. So, for us to just even afford to hold that amount of stock. Let alone pay on scan, so and then you get paid. Yeah. So, 8000 stores which is just not worth it so we actually said no

 

Tim

Good on you.

 

Mia

Yeah

 

Tim

Takes guts to say no to things like that. It takes guts to say no generally.

 

Mia

Yeah, it’s hard to say no.

 

Tim

Yes.

 

Mia

It’s important I think it is important

 

Tim

Yeah, I agree to say no determines what you say yes to right to.

 

Mia

Yeah right. Right.

 

Tim

As I’ve learned many a time. What about distribution? So, you’re in retail supermarkets pharmacies. You’re all you’re online as well.

 

Mia

Yeah.

 

Tim

What have you noticed about consumer buying habits over the years? Are we going online or what’s happening?

 

Mia

A lot of people are going online. Again, I think because of the added convenience. But that said there also is a convenience element of buying in-store if you’re at the supermarket you’re purchasing your weekly you’re doing your weekly food shop, feminine hygiene is something that you would just add to your basket but there certainly is quite a shift to online again particularly with time poor young professionals, young couples, young students living in very small apartments perhaps not even shopping as much for food.

 

Tim

How do you balance that between talking to a supermarket buyer who really wants to own who wants a monopoly over the distribution of a product right vs. going oh yeah you know people can buy online but they don’t have to come into your supermarket? How do you manage? Is it an issue or is it not?

 

Mia

It’s not an issue and look no it’s not an issue. The market is huge.

 

Tim

I can think of a lot of products in the supermarket that I can go buy online.

 

Mia

Well the supermarkets have got their own online stores as well. So, they kind of service that part of the market themselves so they’ve kind of got their finger in that pie also. I think it’s a very different customer. I think for us Moxie box club customer is, it is really a brand loyalist. It’s someone that’s willing to invest. It is a significant investment. So, it’s 30 dollars a box. So, you can choose to have that delivered.

 

Tim

For how many?

 

Mia

So, you get five products you can choose whatever products you want. The value is really higher.

 

Tim

Which is the gift box.

 

Mia

Yeah you can have five products in it. But as I said some of those items alone are worth you know 10 or 15 dollars so the value is quite high and they are items you can’t necessarily buy elsewhere but it’s still is a hurdle to purchase. So, you can purchase that either monthly by monthly or quarterly which effectively kind of reduces that monthly spend. But arguably you could just go to the shops and buy a pack for five bucks if you only needed the one. So, I think it is a slightly different customer as well I think we’re servicing a different customer. So, touch wood at this stage we haven’t had an issue again. I don’t think we’ve got a big enough piece of the pie to really warrant any interest at this stage. I think it’d be a good problem to have.

 

Tim

But let’s talk about the pie and increasing your slice of that pie. Which marketing is pretty good at? So what marketing is most effective for you? Really for you, that if you do this you going to get this

 

Mia

Samplings always been really great for us. Samplings great. Getting the product in people’s hands. And I wonder if that would be true of other brands I’m not I’m not sure. I think we’re fortunate that we’ve got this cute factor like Moxie teens are really cute. People really want the teens and yeah it is kind of a desirable product and it does lend itself to this more sort of fashion area. We do a lot of sampling at fashion related events so that works really really well for us. I’d say that’s probably one of the things that’s been most effective.

 

Tim

We’ve had a number of three different guests over the years that have actually got their product into the bags at the Oscars.

 

Mia

Oh wow. Yeah. Fantastic.

 

Tim

There you go.

 

Mia

Yeah.

 

Tim

Just go on train in America.

 

Mia

Yeah. Brilliant.

 

Tim

It must be a challenge selling a product that gets represented so often in euphemistic terms. So, we were laughing at our pre-interview the other day like an ad for a tampon normally involves blue liquid. I’m not sure you bleed blue.

 

Mia

No last time I checked. No.

 

Tim

Women in their white sporting gear.

 

Mia

Yeah

 

Tim

It’s all very cliched.

 

Mia

Yeah.

 

Tim

Does it create. Is it make it difficult to get your message across?

 

Mia

Initially it actually made it easier because I feel like we were the first brand that really came out and said this is all bogus. This is not how it happens at all. This is not how things roll in the real world. We came out and said our first tagline was have a beautiful day in hell. So, we pretty much acknowledged that the experience was going to be rubbish. We pretty much came out and said it’s not going to be fun you guys sorry it’s going be crap.

 

Tim

We can’t do any about that.

 

Mia

We can’t change that. What we can change is you know is this we can at least provide you with a product that’s going to work. Put a smile on your face. It’s going to make you laugh a little bit. You’re going to feel well equipped and you know we’re very real about what we can deliver. And so that allows us to create some noise because that message was not the message that the majority of the market was telling. So again, it was polarizing some people went, Oh that’s offensive. That’s ridiculous. But again, we know one of our brand values is being real and we stand by that. Everything we do is real. We’re transparent in everything that we do. And part of it is about what we can deliver. We’re not going to over promise and under deliver. We’re not about women running on the beach wearing white pants. Ironically, I’m wearing a white. You know you’ve got a great video on the website too which has been in white gear on bike.

 

Mia

She has an accident

 

Tim

She has an accident and its all very real and.

 

Mia

It happens.

 

Tim

You who talk about polarizing and I love it it’s a great discussion to have because I think far too many business owners are scared to get anyone’s nose out of joint. Yeah and I just think it’s a wonderful thing to do. Would it be fair to say that your poll you do actually polarize a fair chunk of the market? I mean I look at moxie and I go I know it’s probably for the 50 to 30 year old woman and after that they’re going to go. It’s not for me it’s a young person’s product. I’ll have to stay for. Thank you.

 

Mia

It’s interesting. It’s so interesting you say that because

 

Tim

Am I wrong?

 

Mia

Well I’m going to pose a different view of that. So, I would say that I think where we sit is where we feel where we like to think we see it is quite an aspirational audience. So, we are slightly old and when I say slightly older I mean 18 plus. So, a lot of brands in this space will target first home users which makes sense because if you get them when they’re young and they stick to your product then they use it indefinitely. But again, we knew we couldn’t compete head on. So, we chose a slightly older audience and as I said moxie is the brand that you buy because you like it that’s your own choice it’s not the brand Mumbai’s brand that you because you like it. So, we went 18 sorts of 18 to 24ish as our kind of as our core and we found that the younger girls. The 15-year olds want what the 18 24-year olds have got and the 30 plus women which I am now in that pocket. Yeah, they want to be younger. So, it’s a really, it’s an interesting place to be. And that said I’ve got you know wonderful 50 plus year old women that email me and say I don’t necessarily need to use these products for their core use anymore but I’m using them for some other things or for just for freshness or whatever and thanks for providing something so thoughtful that still resonates with me. So, it’s really interesting that it actually does appeal to a much broader segment we do kind of target quite specifically which we have to make our marketing effective. But it does certainly go above and below.

 

Tim

How do you keep the figure on the poles of what your tribe is thinking and talking about. Do you actively ring customer. I have I had a fellow who I worked with an advertising many years ago who looked after a lot of F.M.C.G. products and what he would do is he would get the marketing director of a big F.M. C.G. brand to go with him to the supermarket and stand in the aisle and watch when people buy a product from that category. Then they just watch and then sometimes they go up afterwards. Why do you choose the Corn Flakes over the Vita Brits or which I think is brilliant? How do you stay in contact?

 

Mia

That’s a really difficult in this category like it’s as I said it is a grudge purchase and it’s quite embarrassing purchase unfortunately but there is still a stigma attached to purchasing feminine hygiene products. Yeah there is. Again, not everybody

 

Tim

From where?

 

Mia

I find it’s kind of the older women that are still a little bit embarrassed about buying it. But not everybody. But there’s still is a bit of a stigma attached to it which we’re trying very very hard to change.

 

Tim

It’s like buying condoms

 

Mia

Really it is. I do I put it in that can. I put it in that can. And so yeah, we try not to sort of shadow women at the point of purchase because. Yeah. It’s frustrating.

 

Tim

Well maybe. But I mean you know like I don’t think if you went up to a woman in the aisle of a supermarket and just put some tampons in a trolley and say listen I’m Mia you’re my own Moxie.

 

Mia

That would be weird.

 

Tim

I think it would be incredibly valuable.

 

Mia

I’m going to try that and report back.

 

Tim

Thank you. Thank you. What about social media?

 

Mia

Yes, social media is great. So, I actually I’m really heavily involved in all the customer service stuff that we do. So, I touch all of it. So, all the customer inquiries come directly to me and I monitor all of our social media pages as well which is I think I’ve bitten off quite a chunk but I love it like I love it.

 

Tim

Control freak you know.

 

Mia

No I think it’s just it’s been really wonderful and I think on both sides I think it’s great for me to really understand my customers and to know what they’re saying and I’m not I don’t get offended if someone has a suggestion or a complaint or whatever it may be I’m all ears. I really embrace it and I think that’s really important to do. As a brand owner and I think on the flipside of that I think customers are really appreciative that someone has taken the time to actually get back to them

 

Tim

And the owner.

 

Mia

Yeah and I think sometimes it’s not easy but I think it’s really important and it really allows us to stay in touch. So, I really kind of understand where they’re at all times and what they’re saying and they know that they’ve got this direct link to the brand as well and I feel like in a way it kind of makes them feel a little bit more like they’re part of something which they are.

 

Tim

You’ve got 54000 followers on Facebook. You got five on Instagram. I was surprised to see that I wouldn’t consider Instagram is your bread and butter.

 

Mia

I know Instagram is hot.  Yeah, it’s really baffled us too to be honest. Facebook is amazing for us. I wonder if it’s because it allows us to have more of a discussion. So again, Moxie is kind of the brand that is you know it is it is quite vocal. As a brand we’d like to open up cans of worms so to speak. We have an opinion on things when I scared to voice it and we encourage our moxiets. So, our customers are called moxiets which they call themselves moxiets which I absolutely love. So, we encourage our moxiets to have an open dialogue with us and Facebook really allows for that. Instagram not so much, if you like Instagram is a bit more of a visual diary.

 

Tim

Absolutely.

 

Mia

And I just I kind of appreciate that perhaps women don’t necessarily want to see images of the tampons every day in their Instagram feed. So, I think they do different things.

 

Tim

or in Facebook feed.

 

Mia

Oh yeah in Facebook feeds. Yeah. So, it’s about the conversation that we have and I think we perhaps we’re just doing a better job of it on Facebook than we are on Instagram.

 

Tim

Opening cans of worms is a strategy that works for you being opinionated on Facebook.

 

Mia

Yeah yeah.

 

Tim

Can you give an example of a post that’s really working for you?

 

Mia

Oh, my goodness. Trying to think of that. Yeah. I can’t think of one exactly. I wish I knew I would have come up with one because we’ve had quite a few to be honest and they get tens of thousands of hits like

 

Tim

Right.

 

Mia

It just floors me every time. But it might be something to do with, there may be a women’s rights issue happening somewhere in the world and or it might be a legal case or there there’s something going on and we will post about it but we will also have an opinion on it. So rather than just throwing it out there and saying hey what do you think we say this is what we think because we do have a firm stance we are very again we’re very real. We’re very

 

Tim

Have you grabbed hold of metoo thing? The hashtag metoo kind of run with that?

 

Mia

We haven’t as much. Not specifically but certainly iterations of it. Again, I think for us it’s about relevance and just you know really picking up on the things that you know that are relevant which of course it is relevant as women

 

Tim

Social influence marketing could you sending it out to social influencers or celebrities and then having them say hey I use moxie.

 

Mia

Yeah, we have done a bit of that. Yeah. We have done a bit of that. But again, it’s you know it’s all about really authentic relationships. So, we show that everything that we do is authentic and it’s you know it’s a genuine. A genuine collaboration. It’s genuinely because that person really likes the brand or uses the brand not just because we paid them to.

 

Tim

Mia, I love what you’ve done. I think Moxie for anyone who is interested in brand and I mean brand visually. I mean brand from a copy point of view because some of the cheeky line.

 

Mia

Yeah, they’re there hidden there. So, I actually wrote all the copy on our website

 

Tim

I loved it

 

Mia

And there’s a lot of there’s a lot of double entendres and bit of cheekiness as well.

 

Tim

I think anyone who wants to understand that side of their marketing better then go and have a look at the Moxie website and see how you’ve done that. It’s beautiful. Beautiful box I imagine the whole customer experience of buying online is fantastic. I think it’s are exciting. If someone is listening and wants to make an offer to buy Moxie then please contact me directly

 

Mia

All offers accepted.

 

Tim

All offers accepted.

 

Mia

Or considered

 

Tim

Not exactly right. It’s a big yacht that you want to.

 

Mia

There’s a lot of women that we need to help in other countries so yeah

 

Tim

Okay and moxie.com.au is where to go and get your supply. Mia thank you for taking us behind the scenes of a wonderful brand.

 

Tim

Thank you. Thanks so much.